From: "Bob Post" <pst@sio.midco.net>
To: "Randy Karasek" <karasekr@comcast.net>
Cc: "mike england" <mike.england@bcca.com>,
	"Joe Germino" <joseph.germino@verizon.net>,
	"Marcia Butterbaugh" <kcselect@earthlink.net>,
	"Kenn Flemmons" <kflemmons@sbcglobal.net>,
	"Bruce Gregg" <BTGREGG@earthlink.net>,
	"bob post" <pst@sio.midco.net>
References: <4421D785.70102@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Permission to distribute digital Beer Cans Monthly / Brewery Collectibles
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:22:26 -0600

Status Report

Randy, just because you haven't heard from us doesn't mean you are not in 
our thoughts, discussions, etc..

On the surface, very acceptable. But we have backdrop issues to resolve and 
hopefully, at the upcoming Board meeting next Saturday, we can agree on a 
process.

Thanks for your patience.

Bob



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randy Karasek" <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: "Butterbaugh, Marcia" <kcselect@earthlink.net>; "Gordon, Steve" 
<steve@beercanman.com>; <jsmoller@earthlink.net>; <pst@sio.midco.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:02 PM
Subject: Permission to distribute digital Beer Cans Monthly / Brewery 
Collectibles


> Robert Post (BCCA President)
> Marcia Butterbaugh (BCCA Magazine Editor)
> John Smoller (Rusty Bunch Chapter President)
> Steve Gordon (Rusty Bunch Chapter Secretary/Treasurer)
>
> Please find attached a request for formal permission from the BCCA for
> the Rusty Bunch chapter to distribute digital scans of the defunct Beer
> Cans Monthly and the defunct follow on Brewery Collectibles, as part of
> the Rustlings electronic archive project. I have discussed this project
> with all in person, and this is a followup formal request to hopefully
> be discussed (and approved) at the April BCCA Board meeting.
>
> What I am requesting from the BCCA is something formal from either BCCA
> president or BCCA legal for permission to the Rusty Bunch chapter to
> distribute electronic scans of these defunct magazines. The BCCA will
> still retain copyright/ownership of the magazine content, just would
> grant the Rusty Bunch chapter permission to distibute electronic copies.
>
> I have attached both Word document as well as ASCII text. Please let me
> know if any problems reading this request, or if any questions/issues
> you would like me to answer. I have also sent US Mail copies of this
> letter to both Robert Post (BCCA President) and Steve Gordon (Rusty
> Bunch Chapter Secretary/Treasurer). Thanks for your time.
>
> Randy Karasek
> BCCA #31836
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

> To:   Robert Post (BCCA President)
> Cc:   Marcia Butterbaugh (BCCA Magazine Editor)
>   John Smoller (Rusty Bunch Chapter President)
>   Steve Gordon (Rusty Bunch Chapter Treasurer/Secretary)
> From:   Randy Karasek (BCCA #31836)
> Subject: Permission to distribute digital Beer Cans Monthly / Brewery 
> Collectibles
>
> Hello Robert,
>
> It was a pleasure chatting with you at the Western States canvention and I hope you
> enjoyed your trip to the West Coast. Per our discussion, this letter is a formal request for
> the Rusty Bunch Chapter of the BCCA to receive permission to distribute, without cost,
> digital scans of back issues of Beer Cans Monthly and follow on Brewery Collectibles.
>
> Over 2005-2006 I have been working on creation of an electronic archive of the Rustlings
> newsletters, ranging from our first issue in February 1984 to present (currently 5,887
> pages now scanned and digitized). As part of this archive project, I have written a custom
> Java program to view this digital data, as well as created a search engine and search keys
> for major keywords. The end result of this Rustlings archive project will be to provide a
> fully searchable, fully indexed, electronic copy of each and every page of our Rustlings
> newsletter. Current plan is to make this archive available middle of 2006.
>
> The Rusty Bunch chapter will be distributing this content on CD/DVD, with all net
> revenue (gross proceeds minus cost of the media, labels and shipping) contributed to the
> Rusty Bunch treasury. I will be receiving no monetary profit from this effort, instead,
> simple satisfaction that this older information now made available to all collectors.
>
> As part of scanning Rustlings I have also scanned each and every page of the defunct
> Beer Cans Monthly magazine, as well as the defunct follow on Brewery Collectibles. At
> the time of my scanning I had assumed these were both long out of date and there would
> be no copyright/ownership issues. It has since come to my attention the BCCA has
> purchased rights to both of these defunct magazines, and thus this request. I am now
> requesting formal permission from the BCCA to allow the Rusty Bunch chapter, without
> cost, to include digital scans and searchable index of all pages of the Beer Cans Monthly
> (1978-1982) and Brewery Collectibles (1982-1984) magazines as part of our electronic
> archive. While these are long out of date and very difficult to obtain, these magazine
> issues still contain great historical information that I feel would be a major benefit to our
> collecting community. The BCCA will still retain copyright/ownership of the magazine
> content, with the Rusty Bunch chapter simply receiving formal permission to distribute
> electronic scans of these magazines.
>
> Thank you for your time and I hope the above able to be discussed at the April BCCA
> board meeting. Please let me know if you have any questions/issues about the above.
>
> Randy Karasek                           randy@mbcinfo.com 
> BCCA #31836

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:42:01 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: Bob Post <pst@sio.midco.net>
CC: John Smoller <jsmoller@earthlink.net>, 
 Kenn Flemmons <kflemmons@sbcglobal.net>,
 mike england <mike.england@bcca.com>, 
 Joe Germino <joseph.germino@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Scanning back issues of BCCA Newsletters/Magazines

Bob Post wrote:

> Hi Randy:
> The Board accepted the concept of digitally scanning back issues and 
> commends you for taking on this herculean task.
>  
> We have authorized Kenn Flemmons to work with you in the creation of 
> this joint venture. The Board would like the opportunity to 
> approve the plan at their June 10th (Swap-A-Rama) board meeting.
> <>Bob 

Thanks for the info Bob and I will follow up with Kenn on details. At 
present I still have six years of Rustlings to generate search keys and 
table of contents, and looking more like middle/late May to complete 
this work.

Randy Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:12:09 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: Joe Germino <joseph.germino@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Scanning back issues of BCCA Newsletters/Magazines
References: <0IXM00DQYCMTP521@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>

Joe Germino wrote:

> Hi Randy! At the last Board Meeting there was quite a bit of 
> discussion related to this topic and I took the action to contact you 
> to discuss the Club's concerns. Could you send me a few times I could 
> try to call you to discuss?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Joe Germino #24997
>
> BCCA Secretary
>
>  
>
Hello Joe,

I am semi-retired and work from home. Living in California (Pacific 
Time) and you can likely reach me by phone 9:00am-1:30pm PDT either 
Thursday or Friday. I am around for another 30+ minutes if you want to 
call today (Wednesday). Note that I have also been contacted by Kenn 
Flemmons whom will likely be calling me Thursday.

Note: My general feeling on BCM, BC, and older Rustlings is that these 
have little value in current printed form. You can rarely find back 
issues of BCM/BC for sale at shows (BCCA does not sell them and no plans 
to reproduce printed copies), and older Rustlings there has been very 
little interest in photocopying of back issues (even with charging just 
the basic photocopy costs). The real value is in making this information 
available (and searchable) to as many collectors as possible, with very 
little cost as possible.

Randy Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com

Home: xxx-xxx-xxxx (prefer calling home)
Cell: xxx-xxx-xxxx

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:39:12 -0400
From: "Joe Germino" <joseph.germino@verizon.net>gt;
Subject: RE: Scanning back issues of BCCA Newsletters/Magazines
To: "'Randy Karasek'" <karasekr@comcast.net>gt;
Cc: "'Kenn Flemmons'" <kflemmons@sbcglobal.net>gt;,
	"'Bob Post'" <pst@sio.midco.net>gt;

Randy - thanks for the response but unfortunately I won't be able to call
you until Friday. My birthday is tomorrow and I'm going to the Yankee game
and then to dinner. I would like to discuss this with you personally, plus
get to know you, but let me give you some food for thought. The biggest
concern the Board had was releasing BCCA intellectual property in any form.
This will still be the big battle we have to deal with. (I say we because I
like what you're doing with the magazines and newsletters and am prepared to
back this effort.) My concern is to put as much security on the CD's to try
and prevent anybody from copying the CD's once they're sold so I can
convince the Board we have taken every precaution necessary to prevent
theft. I know this is pretty near impossible, but we need to be convincing
in our argument. How are you formatting the CD's and are you putting
additional read/write security on them? The second issue is a matter of
control. The Board feels once again this is intellectual property the Club
owns so if they approve your efforts to scan and copy the CD's, the Board
feels the CD's should be a BCCA Store Supply item and sold through the BCCA.
I agree as well since the magazines are BCCA property. However, since you
and the Rusty Bunch are doing all the work, profits will be shared and this
is where Kenn comes in. Kenn will work out an amenable deal to split the
profits, agree to keep inventory and sales info of the CD's w/the BCCA
Store. I think both you and the Rusty Bunch should receive credit for this
effort and I would not be opposed to have a credit acknowledgement on the
CD's. The last concern I have is since the magazines are BCCA intellectual
property, the BCCA would develop a contract outlining exactly what the
arrangements are between the BCCA, the Rusty Bunch and you. I think this
will protect you and the Rusty Bunch if someone does copy and distribute the
CD's. If you prefer to respond via e-mail for our future discussion please
do, but keep the distribution list to the folks on this e-mail. Thanks and
looking forward to working with you.

Cheers!

Joe

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:19:01 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: Joe Germino <joseph.germino@verizon.net>
CC: 'Kenn Flemmons' <kflemmons@sbcglobal.net>, 
 'Bob Post' <pst@sio.midco.net>,
 John Smoller <jsmoller@earthlink.net>, 
 "Gordon, Steve" <steve@beercanman.com>
Subject: Re: Scanning back issues of BCCA Newsletters/Magazines

Joe Germino wrote:

Thanks for the reply Joe, and I will be home Friday morning if you want 
to call. For now please see my comments below. Note that I have CC'd 
John Smoller (current Rusty Bunch president) and Steve Gordon (current 
Rusty Bunch treasurer), both of whom I had a good discussion about this 
at Blue/Gray 2006.  Please note the comments below are my opinion, not 
meant as a personal attack on anyone, and I have been careful to re-read 
my reply before sending to make sure the words are what I want to convey.

> Randy - thanks for the response but unfortunately I won't be able to 
> call you until Friday. My birthday is tomorrow and I'm going to the 
> Yankee game and then to dinner. I would like to discuss this with you 
> personally, plus get to know you, but let me give you some food for 
> thought. The biggest concern the Board had was releasing BCCA 
> intellectual property in any form.
>
First off, "intellectual property" is something a *business* will use to 
attempt to outperform, outdesign, or outsell a competing company, with 
purpose to monetarily profit from this information. It is the life and 
blood of a profitable company, not a hobby. A hobby is a group of people 
with similar interest, getting together to share that similar interest.

I would be willing to bet that the content in Beer Cans Monthly and 
Brewery Collectibles was submitted by collectors/contributors with the 
sole intent to share with other collectors, not keep Robert Dabbs or 
Jeff Cameron in a "for profit" publishing business. The purpose of these 
magazines, and reason they were put together was to share information 
with other collectors, not primarily as a money making venture. The 
magazines were just a conduit in which to share this information. As the 
collecting boom faded, Jeff Cameron ran Beer Cans Monthly and Brewery 
Collectibles at a monetary loss, and only did so because of his passion 
for the hobby. I was a subscriber during that time and saw the effect of 
managing a money losing publication.

Beer Cans Monthly went under in 1982. Brewery Collectibles went under in 
1984. To my knowledge in the *** 22 *** years since, the BCCA has done 
nothing with respect to republishing back issues of these magazines, or 
had any plans (at least of which have been publically stated) to make 
this information available in any form other than maybe small snippets 
or reprints in the current BCCA magazine. Hobby information which is not 
readily shared with others in the hobby is essentially worthless and 
will "wither and die". Remember, this is a hobby (and sadly not a 
growing one) and we should be doing EVERYTHING possible to retain 
current collectors and draw in future collectors.

> This will still be the big battle we have to deal with. (I say we 
> because I like what you're doing with the magazines and newsletters 
> and am prepared to back this effort.) My concern is to put as much 
> security on the CD's to try and prevent anybody from copying the CD's 
> once they're sold so I can convince the Board we have taken every 
> precaution necessary to prevent theft. I know this is pretty near 
> impossible, but we need to be convincing in our argument. How are you 
> formatting the CD's and are you putting additional read/write security 
> on them?
>
The words "big battle" really bother me. Again, I view this as a HOBBY, 
not a money making business venture. With whom and why am I battling 
with anyone over sharing out of print hobby information? Already I am 
feeling more concern of "keeping the BCCA business alive" versus full 
out promotion and growth of collector interest.

As for CD/DVD protection: Zero security, zero copy protection, zero 
runtime license, zero product activation. Nothing.

The data is simply burned to CD/DVD and easily replicated. Simple 
install from CD/DVD to hard drive (the recommended option), and easily 
installed on multiple user machines (either multiple home machines or 
both home and work machines). I am planning on encoding the scanned JPEG 
files so only readable by my Java application (and not things like 
Photoshop or web browser) but this will be completely hidden and 
shouldn't affect anyone using the product. There will still be a program 
option to export individual files into true JPEG format.

I have worked with many forms of copy protection, and in the end they do 
little to prevent media duplication, while instead causing major hassles 
for the people producing the media, and even more so for the persons 
purchasing and attempting to use the media. Look at all the millions 
Sony spent on protecting their music CDs only to open user computers to 
viruses (and resulting lawsuits). I won't support any CD/DVD copy 
protection (ala Macromedia) which requires the physical media to be 
present when attempting to run the program. I also won't support any 
form of product activation which requires access to an external server 
to "bind" usage to a given machine or IP address. This makes installing 
the product on multiple machines a pain, and again an issue when 
upgrading machines. Plus, any of this "protection" comes at a 
significant $$$ investment cost and would defeat the purpose of trying 
to make a few $$$ for the RB chapter.

> The second issue is a matter of control. The Board feels once again 
> this is intellectual property the Club owns so if they approve your 
> efforts to scan and copy the CD's, the Board feels the CD's should be 
> a BCCA Store Supply item and sold through the BCCA. I agree as well 
> since the magazines are BCCA property.
>
The BCCA does not supply back issues of either Beer Cans Monthly or 
Brewery Collectibles, either real physical copies, replicated copies, 
photocopy, or electronic format. As mentioned above, to date I have not 
seen the BCCA do anything with this historical content.

Would the BCCA be willing to sell me copyright ownership of Beer Cans 
Monthly and Brewery Collectibles? I would be willing to purchase the 
full exclusive rights, or to purchase "shared" rights, allowing 
co-ownership between the BCCA and myself, allowing me to distribute 
electronic content. I am dead serious about this, not intended as a 
joke. I am also fairly certain Class Publishing was a defunct (or near 
defunct) business at time of BCCA purchase and the BCCA didn't pay a 
significant cost to purchase these rights. Still, I am willing to 
negotiate a purchase price with the BCCA as to BCM/BC ownership rights.

> However, since you and the Rusty Bunch are doing all the work, profits 
> will be shared and this is where Kenn comes in. Kenn will work out an 
> amenable deal to split the profits, agree to keep inventory and sales 
> info of the CD's w/the BCCA Store. I think both you and the Rusty 
> Bunch should receive credit for this effort and I would not be opposed 
> to have a credit acknowledgement on the CD's.
>
Not opposed to have credit acknowlegement on the CD's? The BCCA has 
contributed *ZERO* to this project, something of which was initiated by 
myself with intent to simply share collecting information with other 
collectors. It was purely produced and driven by myself, and tested by a 
few members of the Rusty Bunch. Unfortunately I made an assumption that 
since Class Publishing was a defunct company that there would be no 
copyright issues. It was only after the fact that I learned the BCCA had 
purchased rights to these magazines. Stupid mistake on my part not 
investigating this further.

That said, my intent and formal request to the BCCA is for permission 
for the Rusty Bunch to distribute digital scans of BCM/BC, with all net 
profits going to the Rusty Bunch since we are doing all the work. As I 
mentioned last month in follow up email to Robert Post, I have roughly 
350-400 man hours invested in BCM/BC scanning, editing, and associated 
search key generation. If the BCCA wants to work out an amenable deal to 
split the very minimal net profits, I am also willing to work out an 
amenable deal with the BCCA to compensate me for my labor. When I 
retired as a software engineer, my going rate was just over $70/hour. 
Using the very low estimate of man hours (350 hours) that comes to 
$24,500 as a starting point. This does not include costs of my 
application licensing, bug fix versions, and ongoing support of new 
operating systems or new platforms.

> The last concern I have is since the magazines are BCCA intellectual 
> property, the BCCA would develop a contract outlining exactly what the 
> arrangements are between the BCCA, the Rusty Bunch and you. I think 
> this will protect you and the Rusty Bunch if someone does copy and 
> distribute the CD's. If you prefer to respond via e-mail for our 
> future discussion please do, but keep the distribution list to the 
> folks on this e-mail. Thanks and looking forward to working with you.
>
>  
>
> <>Cheers! Joe

Protect me and the Rusty Bunch if someone does copy and distribute the 
CDs? Protect us from whom? The BCCA would actually sue me or the RB 
chapter for long out of print hobby information getting distributed by 
others without compensation? As for somebody else 
(person/chapter/club/company) trying to steal this product and sell 
themselves, nobody is going to try to "undercut" a $25-30 package price 
and try to resell! To whom would they try to sell? The same 200-300 
collectors who may be interested in electronic media? This is actually a 
fairly small hobby which is getting smaller, and information travels 
word of mouth (and email/internet) very quickly.

While I would like this project to generate a few $$$ for the Rusty 
Bunch chapter, it would not really bother me if CD/DVD copies were made 
by other current collectors or possible future collectors. God forbid 
others might get a chance to read, without paying anything, all this 
"intellectual property" from our hobby's  past, especially information 
written about or written by collectors whom are no longer living. Many 
of these guys were the core whom helped organize and freely contribute 
to this HOBBY.

In summary, I repeat my formal request to the BCCA for permission to 
distribute digital scans of BCM/BC, with any net profits (likely less 
than $2000) going to the Rusty Bunch chapter, with control and 
distribution maintained (or possibly shared) by myself and the Rusty 
Bunch. If this permission can't be granted, then I request information 
and possibility for me to personally purchase either exclusive or shared 
copyright ownership. If that is also not possible, then I will drop my 
support of providing BCM/BC with the Rustling archive CDs. At present 
there are five copies of these BCM/BC digital media (four with Rusty 
Bunch members and one unlabeled copy given to Marcia Butterbaugh at 
Blue/Gray). If necessary, I will simply request all these be destroyed, 
and future CD/DVD versions will only contain Rustlings and other 
supported hobby/club content.

Note that while the BCCA has copyright ownership of the printed magazine 
content, this does not give the BCCA permission to use my digital JPEG 
scans for any purpose, and I will formally request any electronic  
copies be destroyed. Needless to say, I am very disappointed that my 
attempt (with all the time, effort and $$$ invested purely my own) to 
share this long out of print historical information has met with ANY 
legal or intellectual property concerns. Remember guys, this is 
information about a HOBBY!

Randall Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com
Rusty Bunch #636

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:23:12 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: Bob Post <pst@sio.midco.net>
Subject: Beer Cans Monthly and Brewery Collectibles project

Hello Bob,

Wanted to write you personally. My opinion the BCCA has a warped usage 
of the term "intellectual property". In a "for profit" 
business/corporation, intellectual property is absolutely vital, the 
life and blood of a company, and what determines whether the company 
will be or remain a success. Ideas, designs, patents, program source 
code, etc.,. absolutely must be protected. For a hobby however, the 
"intellectual property" should be the ***members*** participating in the 
hobby, and everything possible done to increase that membership. Any 
interesting information should readily be shared among those members, 
especially if the information was produced or contributed by such 
members. If information could be created with zero cost, I would hope 
shared with zero/minimal cost. For example, if the USBC could have been 
produced/published with zero cost, I would like to think that the BCCA 
would have distributed this at very minimal cost.

Please try to understand my perspecitve:

- BCM/BC have been long out of print magazines, published by a long out 
  of business publisher

- In the past 22+ years I have seen nobody do anything with this information

- I initiate a project to digitally replicate this content, spending 
  MAJOR man hours (I am sure much more than my 350-400 hour estimate) to
  scan, edit, present/display, and generate search keys/logic around
  this content. Zero input, zero man hours and zero $$$ invested by the 
  BCCA.

- I find out some months after that the BCCA had purchased copyright 
  ownership of these magazines. That is, some many years ago the BCCA
  wrote someone a check, using member contributed $$$, to purchase
  content that was contributed by other collectors with the intent to be
  shared with other collectors.

- I basically offer all of my above labor to the BCCA with only request 
  that I be granted formal permission to distribute this copyrighted
  content. $$$ cost to the BCCA was to be ZERO. I requested this
  permission so no issues down the road as to copyright infringement.

- Any minimal net profits selling a package which included BCM/BC, not 
  just selling BCM/BC would be donated to the Rusty Bunch. Realistically
  we might sell 100-200 copies maximum. Way too many BCCA members are
  very afraid of technology and unlikely to ever use digital content.

- In return I get reply from the BCCA secretary (who I must assume is 
  speaking on behalf of the BCCA board) that the BCCA owns this
  intellectual property, and as such will control and dictate how this
  gets used and distributed. And, the BCCA *might* actually give me
  credit for producing such a product, and might even allow me
  acknowledgement to be included on the CDs? Absolute arrogance! Joe is
  likely to give me credit/acknowledgement for a project I initiated, 
  produced, and willing to provide to the BCCA at no cost to the
  organization.

As mentioned I am very, very disappointed in this response, and at 
present have no plans to pursue inclusion of any BCM/BC content. And one 
step further, I will write a formal statement that the BCCA has zero
permission to use any of my digital BCM/BC scans, and any such data must
be destroyed. The BCCA can keep this intellectual property in printed
magazine form back in whatever "library", and if a project to digitize
this is proposed the BCCA will need to start from scratch.

Frankly such a shame. Imagine including a CD/DVD with BCCA welcome 
packet that had all this magazine content. Imagine giving away some 
"free" copies of this information at shows? As I have stated many times,
"intellectual property" for a hobby which is not shared with other
collectors might as well not exist at all.

As a final note, I am not going to pursue this any longer. Remember what 
we are talking about. Long out of print hobby information, and something
which might be a fun read as to things which were discussed or took place
in early days of our hobby. Fun information to share, not intellectual
property for someone to make money. If the BCCA board wants to reconsider
and agree to my original request, I am still open to distributing BCM/BC
content with Rustling archive CDs, minimal net profits going to the RB
chapter, and all this media readily available to either RB members or 
BCCA members.

Thanks for your time.

Randy Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com

From: "Bob Post" <pst@sio.midco.net>
To: "Kenn Flemmons" <kflemmons@sbcglobal.net>
Cc: "Randy Karasek" <karasekr@comcast.net>,
	"mike england" <mike.england@bcca.com>,
	"Joe Germino" <joseph.germino@verizon.net>,
	"bob post" <pst@sio.midco.net>
Subject: Digital Scan Project.
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:38:53 -0500

Hi Kenn:
I just got off the phone with Randy. Our visit was amicable and 
productive

I was able to understand his motivation for donating this project to the 
hobby through the Rusty Bunch Chapter. He has no desire to obtain any 
remuneration for the hundreds of hours or for the programs purchased to 
facilitate the project. The periodicals he is desiring permission to 
scan are virtually 20+ year old "dead" text/pictures that he is offering 
to bring to life.

I see no threat of exploitation.

Randy is willing to discuss creating a joint venture that will gain him 
the permission to scan and avoid any copyright infringements. It is his 
desire that the finished product be as near a "give-away" as possible 
(i.e., included in each new BCCA member packet). The cost of producing + 
a little S&H charge would create a minimal cost.

Kenn, Randy,,,please contact one another and start a dialogue that will 
result in a draft proposal that I can bring to the Board at it's June 
10th meeting.

Many thanks for persevering during these past few trying days.

Bob Post, President
Brewery Collectibles Club of America

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:13:50 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: John Smoller <jsmoller@earthlink.net>, 
 "Gordon, Steve" <steve@beercanman.com>
CC:  pst@sio.midco.net, "Butterbaugh, Marcia" <kcselect@earthlink.net>, 
 kflemmons@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Beer Cans Monthly digital content

FYI regarding this project.

I had a VERY good phone conversation this morning (Friday, April 14) 
with Robert Post. I think he and I are in general agreement that the 
goal is to provide this information to collectors, not viewed as a "get 
rich" type of venture. Bob's intent was to offer the BCCA services for 
marketing, product distribution, credit card transactions and such. If 
we (the Rusty Bunch) go this route utilizing BCCA staff for distribution 
(or maybe mention in the BCCA magazine) then I fully agree on percentage 
split of the minimal $$$ profits this project may produce. I very much 
appreciate Bob's phone call and pleasant conversation.

Maybe 10 minutes later I got a phone call from Joe Germino (BCCA 
secretary), and in summary an acceptable conversation. His email to me 
maybe was written in haste and not exactly what he wanted to convey, but 
if he is representing the face of the BCCA organization better be darn 
sure what was written is what was intended. Emails can last forever.

In summary, I still retain hope that we (myself and the Rusty Bunch) 
will receive from the BCCA permission to include Beer Cans Monthly and 
Brewery Collectibles with our archive package. While the BCCA does own 
copyrights to this long out of print content, my intention remains for 
now that distribution occur through the RB (single bundled DVD with 
Rustlings and BCM/BC), and that any generated funds go 100% to the Rusty 
Bunch treasury as a way for me to give something back to the chapter. If 
we do utilize BCCA resources for marketing/distribution in the future, 
then absolutely there should be a sharing of any profits.

Hope everyone has a great Easter holidays. Take care.

Randy Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:09:09 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: Joe Germino <joseph.germino@verizon.net>
CC:  pst@sio.midco.net
Subject: Re: Scanning back issues of BCCA Newsletters/Magazines

Joe. A followup to our phone call. I would still like to see details and 
copy of the legal agreement the BCCA received when purchasing copyright 
ownership of the Beer Cans Monthly and Brewery Collectibles magazines. 
Any such ownership transfer has to be on paper to prove that the BCCA 
does indeed own the printed content should there be copyright 
infringement. If no such documentation exists then the BCCA really would 
have no legal grounds on which to contest ownership. If any costs in 
photocopying/mailing this information, I will reimburse the BCCA.

Please don't confuse copyright with trademark.

Copyright covers original works (text, photos, music and such) by the 
author, and prevents others from using those works in any means without 
permission from the author. For a magazine where information is 
contributed by multiple authors, my understanding that the authors 
retain ownership of the submitted material but implicitly grant the 
magazine/publisher permission to include this content within their 
magazine. The magazine publisher retains copyright of the printed text, 
so others can not use published content without the publisher's permission.

Trademark covers product brands or marketing names. For example, "Pepsi" 
is a trademarked name, not copyrighted. Others are not allowed to use 
this name in any related type of business venture. Similarly, the BCCA 
owns (or more appropropriately registered) trademarks for BCCA, Beer Can 
Collectors of America, and such, and nobody else can use these names in 
any related type of business.

I am now wondering whether back in the 1980's the BCCA 
purchased/registered the trademark rights for Beer Cans Monthly and 
Brewery Collectibles, or actually purchased the magazine content 
distribution rights from Class Publishing?

Randy Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:51:27 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: John Smoller <jsmoller@earthlink.net>, 
 "Gordon, Steve" <steve@beercanman.com>,
  pst@sio.midco.net,  kflemmons@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Usage of Beer Cans Monthly / Brewery Collectibles content

Hello Robert, Kenn, John, Steve,

Thanks all for your time, emails, and phone calls regarding usage of 
Beer Cans Monthly and Brewery Collectibles. I had a nice phone call from 
Kenn Flemmons last Friday, discussing alternate possibilities for 
distributing this content (e.g. RB gets rights for one year, then BCCA 
would distribute from BCCA store and receive percent of sales). I have 
spent the past four days thinking about Kenn's proposal which he would 
take back to the BCCA board, though still no guarantee it would have 
been accepted..

However, my original request still stands. Since the BCCA claims 
copyright ownership of this content,  I am requesting permission from 
the BCCA to include digital scans of BCM/BC content with our Rustlings 
electronic archive project, at no cost to the RB, with the RB to 
distribute the bundled CD/DVD package, available for purchase by RB 
member and non-member alike. Nominal cost for this package, with all 
minimal net profits donated back to the RB treasury. As owners of the 
BCM/BC content, the BCCA within their right to say YES or NO.

Why this route instead of continued discussions or negotiating other 
possibilties?

Quite frankly, I have already spent way too many man hours on this 
project, WAY more than could ever be recouped by trying to sell for 
profit. Donating all my effort to produce the digital Rustlings archive 
is a simple indirect donation by myself to the RB, and I thought 
including long obsolete BCM/BC content would be a fun additional read by 
collectors (though major additional man hours required for me to 
scan/edit). To my knowledge the BCCA had zero plans on ever doing 
anything with this old content, and instead of a simple thank you for 
all your time and permission granted, this has felt too much like 
business negotiations and petty bickering over very minimal $$$ this 
might generate, really trivializing all my hours of donated effort (well 
above the $25K level). Sorry guys, my time, effort and intellectual 
property of design/coding/testing my viewer application greatly 
outweighs what I feel the hobby value (no monetary value) of this old 
BCM/BC content. Also, what enjoyment I had into this project or possibly 
working on similar related projects (e.g. scanning BCCA News Reports for 
the BCCA, of which the BCCA would have had permission to sell) has 
essentially evaporated, and willing only to offer "as is" what I have 
already produced.

If the BCCA answer to my request is YES, I will keep the scanned BCM/BC 
pages as part of the RB archive package. If the answer is NO (which 
unfortunately is what I am expecting) I will remove scanned BCM/BC 
content and repackage as just Rustlings (but still include BCM/BC search 
keys which is my own original created work). Life goes on either way.

Please don't take any of the above as confrontational, and before any 
replies that I am being a stubborn ass or such, please take a step back 
and rethink the archaic BCM/BC content we are talking about, what real 
practical value this would have (or possibly never have if left out of 
this project), and honestly try to understand all the effort I have 
offered with no cost to the BCCA (any minimal $$$ cost the BCCA spent to 
purchase BCM/BC rights occurred decades ago). If the answer is still NO, 
thank you for your time, and I still hope to see you guys at the KC 
canvention.

Randy Karasek
RB #636

Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 13:45:29 -0700
From: Randy Karasek <karasekr@comcast.net>
To: John Smoller <jsmoller@earthlink.net>, 
 "Gordon, Steve" <steve@beercanman.com>
CC: "Taylor, Chris" <CTAY777@aol.com>, "Babel, Dave" <rustmonger2@cs.com>, 
 "Benbow, Mark" <roybenbow@earthlink.net>
Subject: BCM/BC request denied

John, Steve, (cc: Chris Taylor, Dave Babel, Mark Benbow)

As expected, and as you were cc'd on their reply, current BCCA position 
is we are not allowed to scan back issues of BCM/BC. Even though

- the BCCA has done nothing with this content in 22+ years
- the BCCA will likely never do anything with this content
- its members and the club did not endorse/contribute to these magazines 
  (remember Robert Dabbs and Jeff Cameron put these out as competitors
  to the BCCA mags)
- the BCCA has contributed ZERO with respect to a project with this 
  data, with the ENTIRE cost of my time/labor being provided for "free"
  in proposed exchange for them simply giving permission

Sorry, while I find this old content somewhat interesting to read, I am 
not going to spend any more time on this, especially needing to 
"bargain" with the BCCA for more of their free use of my time. The BCCA 
does not represent my interest in the hobby, and if not for the magazine 
and overpriced canvention I would not be a member. I will let them 
initiate a project with this content and try to find someone willing to 
spend months of their time, their $$$ and their programming knowledge to 
provide electronic content. Note that the BCCA does not have rights to 
my already scanned digital BCM/BC content, I will not be granting them 
permission, and I will initiate action if they attempt to do so.

Chris/Steve/Dave/Mark: When you receive next round of test CD/DVDs, 
*PLEASE* destroy your initial test versions. My next version will have 
better content control of the individual scanned pages, and individual 
files will not be JPEG but instead something propietary to my viewer 
application, and something I will be able to identify as originating 
from this project.

One additional point I probably I have not made clear, Rustlings will be 
an on-going newsletter, with future months, future years of content. 
While I am programming some form of being able to allow a user to 
"install" a single month's worth of Rustlings (e.g. similar to monthly 
E-Rustlings, download, and then program to install this download) we 
will probably want to burn a new CD/DVD every 6-12 months, and allow 
current owners to maybe order yearly updates at cost (e.g. maybe $5 per 
update order). While not frequent updating of content, we will likely be 
updating content, program bug fixes, new program features at least 
couple of times per year. In this respect, I think it important to 
maintain control/distribution of this dynamic content within the RB. The 
BCCA owned BCM/BC content is old, completely static, and no more of 
these will ever be published. I am not going to go through extra hassles 
for someone to distribute our dynamic content, simply to include their 
old/static content.

Our production versions will be repackaged without BCM/BC content. I 
will still include search keys for matching BCM/BC content since this is 
my own original work and BCCA has no control over that. Clicking on 
these search results will simply display a "dummy page" explaining why 
already scanned BCM/BC content is being kept locked under BCCA control.

Onwards with the RB and Rustlings, and I am still working on completing 
the Rustlings electronic archive.

-Randy